If present/imperfect middle forms of ἵστημι can be transitive or intransitive, is their intransitive meaning similar to the perfect/pluperfect forms?

By: | Post date: 2017-06-15 | Comments: No Comments
Posted in categories: Ancient Greek, Linguistics

Ancient Greek verbs. Gotta love ’em.

Well, actually, no. Don’t gotta love ’em.

So. As Stephen Nelson continues to be thrown by the middle voice, I continue with the series “Ancient Greek Middle Voice: Booooo”, last installment being Nick Nicholas’ answer to Since the active and middle voices of the 2nd aorist forms of “to stand” are intransitive (ἵστημι – ἔστην vs ἐστάμην), are these forms synonymous?

ἵστημι ‘to stand’ appears in the active, and in the middle. If we are lucky, then the active forms are transitive, “to stand something up, to make something stand”, and the middle forms are intransitive, “to be standing”, and things would be clean.

If we are unlucky, then the present middle forms (ἵσταμαι) can be either transitive or intransitive, and the perfect active forms (ἕστηκα) can also be transitive or intransitive, and the two might mean the same thing, “to be standing”.

Which would be just like Greek. And yes, we are unlucky.

LSJ, what sayest thou?

LSJ starts by differentiating the two meanings. Good, good:

  • I: Causal, make to stand.
  • II: Intr., stand.

And then refines them:

  • A. Causal,
    • I. make to stand, set up
    • II. set, place, of things or persons
    • III.
      • 1. bring to a standstill, stay, check
      • 2. set on foot, stir up
      • 3. set up, appoint
      • 4. establish, institute
      • 5. determine
      • 6. fix by agreement
      • 7. bring about, cause
    • IV.
      • 1. place in the balance, weigh
      • 2. weigh out, pay
  • B. Pass and intr tenses of Act. = to be set or placed
    • I.
      • 1. stand
      • 2. take up an intellectual attitude
      • 3. in pregnant sense [i.e. to be facing a prospect]
    • II.
      • 1. stand still, halt
      • 2. metaphorically: stand firm
    • III.
      • 1. to be set up or upright, stand up, rise up
      • 2. to be set up, erected
      • 3. arise, begin
      • 4. to begin, in marking time
      • 5. to be appointed

Lovely. So how do the voices match up with these?

The start of the entry on ἵσταμαι is in fact a giant mapping of verb tenses to the two classes of meaning. But you should already know how this is going to go, from the definition of B. And because this is Greek:

  • Pass and intr tenses of Act

The active means transitive “to make something stand”. The passive means intransitive “to be made to stand”, i.e. to be standing. And the active has “intransitive tenses”. Meaning exceptions.

The mappings given are:

A. Causal. Active: present ἵστημι, future ἑστήσω, first aorist ἔστησα, ἔστασα, perfect ἕστακα; also ἕστηκα in trans. sense; ἕστακεῖα trans. in Test.Epict.

B. Intransitive. Active: second aorist ἔστην, perfect ἕστηκα; late present ἑστήκω formed from perfect, hence future ἑστήξω. Passive: present ἵσταμαι, future σταθήσομαι, aorist ἐστάθην, perfect ἕσταμαι. (It isn’t Doric, it’s Attic.)

*phew*

Allow Dr Nick to elucidate.

The bad news is that there are active forms that still mean “to be standing” and not “to stand something up”.

The very very good news is that this was too confusing even for the Ancient Greeks, so they made sure that the active tenses that meant “to be standing” and the active tenses that meant “to stand something up” did not look like each other: ἔστησα vs ἔστην, ἕστακα vs ἕστηκα (with an exception in one text). There’s also ἵστημι vs ἑστήκω and ἑστήσω vs ἑστήξω, and that’s actually a brand new verb made up from the perfect intransitive ἕστηκα.

The actual question Stephen is asking is: if the active perfect ἕστηκα and the middle present ἵσταμαι both mean “to be standing”, is there some nuance of meaning differentiating the two?

I really hate to say yes, especially given the last answer I gave, but probably yes. A perfect tense is all about being in the aftermath of something, in a state resulting from something. So a perfect tense for “I am standing” is going to be more stative, more durative, than a simple present; maybe more like “I’ve been standing”. You will see some Greek grammars awkwardly hint at this with “I have set myself” vs “I stand”, or as with this German PDF, ich stelle mich “I place myself” vs ich habe mich gestellt => ich stehe “I have placed myself = I stand”.

Unfortunately Greek grammars were mostly written in the 19th century, when people still had a very vague notion of semantics. I’m sure some linguistics postgrad somewhere has worked out a proper treatment of this distinction in the past 50 years, but it won’t have made it into the teaching grammars.

Have the Eclogues and Florilegium of Stobaeus been translated into English?

By: | Post date: 2017-06-15 | Comments: 3 Comments
Posted in categories: Ancient Greek, Literature

To confirm what Alberto Yagos said:

The complete anthologies by Stobaeus, pretty clearly, have not been Englished.

Is it true that Klingon is a living language, and that people who don’t speak the same earth languages can communicate with it?

By: | Post date: 2017-06-14 | Comments: No Comments
Posted in categories: Artificial Languages

I have had conversations in Klingon, including with the guy who was trying to teach his kid to speak in Klingon. (The kid lost interest in it, and I have found a photo of the kid, 15 years later, jumping into a mosh pit. He’s turned out fine. 🙂

The vocabulary admittedly can be a little restricted in some domains. But it can be done, and I have done it.

You aren’t really going to be able to hold a conversation in Klingon, unless you’ve studied The Klingon Dictionary. The book is available in Italian and (I think) German, so in theory it is possible for two people with no common natural language to converse in Klingon. In practice, if any Klingon speaker does not understand English, I would be exceedingly surprised.

Answered 2017-06-14 · Upvoted by

Steve Rapaport, Linguistics PhD candidate at Edinburgh. Has lived in USA, Sweden, Italy, UK. and

Logan R. Kearsley, MA in Linguistics from BYU, 8 years working in research for language pedagogy.

Since the active and middle voices of the 2nd aorist forms of “to stand” are intransitive (ἵστημι – ἔστην vs ἐστάμην), are these forms synonymous?

By: | Post date: 2017-06-13 | Comments: No Comments
Posted in categories: Ancient Greek, Linguistics

James Garry’s answer to Since the active and middle voices of the 2nd aorist forms of “to stand” are intransitive (ἵστημι – ἔστην vs ἐστάμην), are these forms synonymous? This is the answer to this question. And my thanks, James.

What I’m writing here is an answer to a more general question: how much do active/middle voice distinctions matter? It’s an elaboration of Nick Nicholas’ answer to In Ancient Greek, does the middle voice of φιλέω (φιλέομαι) mean “I love in my own interest,” “I love myself,” (reflexive) or “I am loved” (passive)?

My thanks for your indulgence.


English distinguishes between Active and Passive verbs. The distinction is fairly clear cut. An intransitive verb is always active. If a transitive verb is active, the subject is doing stuff; if the transitive verb is passive, the subject is having stuff done to them.

Homeric Greek worked on a different, Active/Middle distinction; in many ways, that distinction has lasted to this day. In that distinction, if a verb is transitive, the active still means you’re doing stuff, and the middle means you’re having stuff done to you. Or that you’re doing it to yourself. Or that you’re doing it for yourself. Or that you’re doing it to each other.

And that’s the easy bit.

What happens when the verb is intransitive?

When the verb is intransitive, it could be active, or it could be middle.

There is a kind of semantics to it. Kind of. If the intransitive verb is active, it means that you’re doing stuff, you’re acting. If the intransitive verb is middle, it means that you’re just sitting there, that you’re passive—or at least, that your actions are inward. So run or go are active. Work or sleep are middle.

Does that distinction sound unconvincing? Good. Because it was.

I mean, the distinction was there. But it was not stable, and it was not consistent, and it was not rigorous.

The distinction was inconsistent enough that some intransitive verbs got to be either active or middle; lampō ‘shine’, for example. In fact, some perfectly transitive verbs also got to be either. So for lambanō, there is an active usage, meaning ‘take’, and a middle usage, meaning ‘take hold of, seize’.

Now, if you are approaching grammar synchronically, like a good structuralist, any contrast in grammatical form must correspond to some contrast in meaning. There has to be some nuance there; some notion of more active vs more passive, some connotation picked up from other actives or middles, some subtlety. It can’t just be random.

People speaking the language at a point in time have good reason to think so. Writers are certainly going to be alert to all the connotations and resonances latent in the language, and they will exploit them. Yes, synchronically there is no such thing as a true synonym.

If you’re working in the diachronic model, you are much more cynical about structuralist notions of paradigm and meaning distinctions, because your business involves watching those structures morph and evaporate.

It’s an overly fuzzy view of language. It’s why a century of Indo-European historical linguistics, which focussed primarily on phonology, did not come up with a concept of the phoneme: it was too busy seeing sounds change to work out the structure of sounds. But it’s a healthy cynicism to bring to bear, when there are overly subtle nuances in play. Even if they’re there, they’re evanescent.

The instance that has made me sceptical about fine active/middle nuances in Greek is phaîo. It’s a verb I spent hours trying to work out in Pindar: The tale of φαῖο.

I couldn’t work it out, because it wasn’t in the grammar books: the 19th century editions of Pindar, that the grammar books were based on, used the active optative of ‘you would say’, φαίης, and that’s what the grammars had documented. The 1971 edition of Pindar switched to the middle optative φαῖο. Both forms turn up in manuscripts.

‘Say’ is one of those intransitive verbs that could appear in the active or in the middle (in the optative mood in particular). Was there a subtle semantics involved? Was there a notion of actively saying something versus passively saying something? Like, asserting versus conceding, or something like that?

Nah. It’s much simpler than that. It’s a dialect difference. Attic used the active in the optative of phēmi ‘say’; Doric, the dialect of Pindar, used the middle. (The edition switched the voice, because they figured that the scribes that had copied Pindar over the generations were more familiar with Attic than Doric.) Attic used the active and Doric the middle, not because Athenians were more assertive than Spartans, or anything like that. It was simply a random choice, that the dialects made in one mood of one verb, when they split apart.

Just like Greek, a few centuries later, replaced the middle ergazomai ‘work’ with the active douleuō ‘originally: to slave away’. No nuance there. Not in the long run: in the long run, nuance gets squashed and overrun by the shifts of language.

Lucky are those who settle down to a single period of language, that delve into its treasures, and that look upon its nuance and subtleties and paradigmatic contrasts as something more substantial, more rich, more verdant—than the cobwebs that Time knows them to be.

Don’t weep for historical linguists, though. We have our own entertainments. And sometimes, we pause to read the literature too, and let go of our cynicism.

How did Plato address Socrates? Teacher? Master?

By: | Post date: 2017-06-13 | Comments: No Comments
Posted in categories: Ancient Greek, Literature

Originally Answered:

How does Plato call Socrates?

Of course, we don’t have transcripts by Plato of chats with Socrates, we have dialogues he made up. But Socrates is constantly addressed in Plato’s dialogues as “O Socrates” (ὦ Σώκρατες), with monotonous regularity—over 1200 times in the works of Plato. Socrates in turn addresses his trollees (er, interlocutors) as “O partner” or “o good man” (ὦ ἑταῖρε, ὠγαθέ).

How are the clusters “μψ” and “γξ” pronounced in Modern Greek?

By: | Post date: 2017-06-13 | Comments: No Comments
Posted in categories: Linguistics, Modern Greek

Modern Greek has nasal Sandhi. That means that following a word ending in /n/, any voiceless stop is voiced. (And in the case of /ks/ and /ps/, so is the following /s/.) The /n/ in turn assimilates in place of articulation to what follows.

So:

  • patera “father”, san patera [sam batera] “like a father”
  • keo “I burn”, ðen keo [ðeŋ ɡeo] “I don’t burn”
  • psixi “soul”, stin psixi [stim bziçi] “to the soul”
  • kseno “stranger”, ton kseno [toŋ ɡzeno] “the stranger”

Does βαμπίρ have female and plural forms in modern Greek?

By: | Post date: 2017-06-13 | Comments: No Comments
Posted in categories: Linguistics, Modern Greek

Being a foreign word ending in a non-Greek ending, there is no plural. In Modern Greek, if a noun ends in something other than a vowel or sigma, it can’t be declined. (Nu is archaic; rho xi psi even more so.) So το βαμπίρ, τα βαμπίρ.

I see that at least one person online has named themselves Vampirissa “vampiress”, forming a feminine of the form. But that would be considered informal usage: formal usage would just put a feminine article in front of βαμπίρ.

There is a reason unassimilated loanwords suck.

Are βαμπιρ and βρικόλακας the same word in modern Greek?

By: | Post date: 2017-06-12 | Comments: No Comments
Posted in categories: Linguistics, Modern Greek

As other answers have pointed out, the vrikolakas is an indigenous Greek creature rising from the grave, with its own mythology, which is only somewhat similar with that of the vampire. Andreas Karkavitsas‘ harrowing novella The Beggar (1897) depicts the associated superstitions in detail.

When I was a kid, as far as I remember, the Vampires of Eastern Europe or Hollywood were rendered as vrikolakas. They now appear to be rendered as vampir. If you are referring to the vampires of western popular culture, as opposed to blood drinking beings that people used to actually be afraid of, vampir is a safe bet.

Why did the Byzantines call Western Europeans beef-eaters?

By: | Post date: 2017-06-08 | Comments: No Comments
Posted in categories: Literature, Mediaeval Greek

Because Byzantines did not eat beef as often as Western Europeans did.

See Karen Carr’s answer to What was the basic diet like in the Byzantine era (circa 530) under Emperor Justinian and Empress Theoradora?

They occasionally ate lamb and mutton, chicken, and pork; rarely beef.

Or the Oxford Dictionary of Byzantium, s.v. meat:

The most popular kind of meat was lamb … Goat meat is mentioned, among others, by Liutprand of Cremona, who did not enjoy the “fat goat” served at the imperial court in Constntinople. Pork was considered a coarse food, whereas the chine of beef appears in Niketas Choniates as a staple of imperial banquets and of the Crusaders.

Or An Entertaining Tale of Quadrupeds, which I have cotranslated: the Sheep, Pig, Goat and Rabbit each boast of how tasty their meats are; the Buffalo only mentions its cheese, and the Ox does not mention either meat or dairy products: he only mentions how his horn is used to polish books, and his penis is used to make whips.

Why beef would be avoided is a question I’m not fully across. If the Ancient Greeks could come up with the Hecatomb, they certainly had neither a shortage of beef, nor a reluctance to eat it. Greeks do eat beef now—though more veal than beef, and much more lamb than either.

The related question, why do I keep referring to Western Europeans from a Greek perspective on Quora as “beef-eaters”, is because Niketas Choniates memorably used the phrase in his account of the sack of Constantinople:

Οἱ δ’ ἀγκροῖκοι καὶ ἀγελαῖοι ἐπεκερτόμουν μᾶλλον τοῖς ἐκ Βυζαντίου ἡμῖν καὶ τὴν ἐν πτωχείᾳ καὶ γυμνότητι κακουχίαν ἰσοπολιτείαν ἀφρόνως ὠνόμαζον, οὐ τοῖς τῶν πέλας κακοῖς παιδευόμενοι. πολλοὶ δὲ καὶ ἀνομίαν ὑπολαμβάνοντες „εὐλογητὸς Κύριος, ὅτι πεπλουτήκαμεν“ ἔλεγον, ὀλίγου τὰς τῶν συμφυλετῶν οὐσίας ἀποδιδομένας ὠνούμενοι. οὐ γάρ πω βουθοίνας εἰσῳκίσαντο Λατίνους, καὶ εἴδοσαν, ὅπως μὲν τὸν οἶνον ἄκρατον ὁμοῦ καὶ ζωρότερον ὥσπερ καὶ τὸν χόλον ἀκέραστον χέουσιν, ὅπως δὲ Ῥωμαίοις ἐν ὑπερηφανίᾳ καὶ ἐξουδενώσει προσφέρονται.

The peasants and common riff-raff jeered at those of us from Byzantium and were thick-headed enough to call our miserable poverty and nakedness equality, without learning anything from the evils perpetrated at their doorstep. Many were only too happy to accept this outrage, saying “Blessed be the Lord that we have grown rich”, and buying up for next to nothing the property that their fellow-countrymen were forced to offer for sale, for they had not yet had much to do with the beef-eating Latins and they did not know that they served a wine as pure and unmixed as unadulterated bile, nor that they would treat the Romans with utter contempt.

What is the origin of rhyming poetry? Is it strictly European-based?

By: | Post date: 2017-06-08 | Comments: No Comments
Posted in categories: Linguistics, Mediaeval Greek, Other Languages

In fact, though Rhyme – Wikipedia is very coy and tentative about stating it, there is good evidence that European rhyme originates in Arabic rhyme, via the Andalus; Arabic has used rhyme extensively since the sixth century. There is occasional rhyme in Classical Greek and Latin, but that is an effect, not a structuring principle. The claim for Old Irish is apparently disputed. Rhyme arose independently in Chinese poetry (far earlier), but it did not have any impact on Europe.

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