How has the word “pou” (που) been used in Greek, historically, throughout the various dialects?

By: | Post date: 2017-01-18 | Comments: No Comments
Posted in categories: Linguistics, Modern Greek

God bless Khateeb, he’s actually asking me what I found in my PhD. Without me bribing him. And I’ve forgotten to reupload my thesis; Khateeb, remind me to do it if I haven’t done it in the next week.

There will be some jargon here, but I’ll try to keep it high level.

που (< ὅπου “where”) is a relative conjunction (I saw the guy that came here). It can also be used in Standard Greek to introduce some clausal complements, but not all (I am happy that you came, but not I hope that you came. I hear you walking, but not I heard that you walked. You walked in—I already knew that, but not I know that you walked in.) And especially in older vernacular Greek, it was a catch-all conjunction in general: it could be used to mean “when”, “because”, “although”, etc.

If any classicists are reading this: its range of functions is pretty similar to those of the Ancient participle.

The unifying principle seems to be that whatever clause it introduces is taken as given, in some sense. (Some very slippery, hard to express sense.) It is true and real in the world, or it is presupposed, or it is phrased as if it is presupposed.

  • Τhere’s a wonderful exception in “the hell I did!”-type statements, where the speaker is making fun of the claim being presupposed by someone else: βρε άει στο διάολο που πήγα. Nicholas, N. 2005. pu-based Greek Rude Negators. Journal of Greek Linguistics 6. 103-150; http://www.opoudjis.net/Work/xez…

What’s the diversity in dialect? High level:

  • Lots and lots of dialects have generalised the complement use to all real complements: they can use it to say “I heard that you walked” or “I know that you walked”. Constantinople dialect is the best known one; see http://www.opoudjis.net/Work/com…. There’s no obvious connection between the dialects, and I think it’s just independent drift: it’s the kind of construction that would generalise anyway.
  • For the conjunction use, the dialects generally align, but the mainland dialects align much more closely than the island dialects do. Some island dialects do strange things with που as a conjunction, especially moving it away from given clauses, to more hypothetical clauses (e.g. “whenever”).

My irresponsible hypothesis on the latter: mainland dialects are more homogeneous grammatically, because of unimpeded communication between regions and bilingualism: analogy was more pervasive in levelling out eccentric developments, and promoting internal consistency (που always referring to given situations, etc). The islands are more eccentric linguistically in general (including more archaic): they are more isolated, and have not had any bilingualism. So they had less pressure to level out eccentricities.

What is a four-tined fork called if a three-tined fork is a trident? Serious and not so serious answers welcomed!

By: | Post date: 2017-01-17 | Comments: No Comments
Posted in categories: English, Linguistics

quadrident.

3780 hits on Google.

Here’s a commercial instance:

IMERSION – Underwaters sports – SPEARFISHING SPIRIT

The Coralign brand has a large variety of differents accessories tridents and quadridents to fit the threaded 6 X 100 shafts.

How can I become a field linguist and/or a historical linguist?

By: | Post date: 2017-01-17 | Comments: No Comments
Posted in categories: General Language, Linguistics

First part, you get the PhD. Margaret FalerSweany has got that covered.

Expect to have to do at least one postdoc too.

Now the fun part. How do you become an academic.

Nick Nicholas’ answer to What is your personal experience with obtaining a linguistics degree?

Did you run into any unexpected issues? Apart from the fact that you can’t become a tenured academic without

  • stepping on corpses
  • selling out and doing research in fashionable areas
  • coming to view both research and teaching as drudgery
  • having your career contingent on grants funding
  • having no free time, let alone time for research, because you spent half your life applying for grants, half doing admin, and the other half marking?

… Still here? OK:

Field Linguist:

Read Nick Nicholas’ answer to I want to be a linguist focusing on conserving languages. Should I do it?

You’ll need to get a job in a country that has a fieldwork tradition, and where grant authorities are prepared to fund you to go to Boingo Boingo (or wherever). Australia is a good country for that. So’s Germany (Max Planck). Bits of the US. But not, say, Italy or Spain.

There’s some chance of getting a gig as a language worker with an indigenous community. That’ll get quite political, you won’t be running your own agenda, the pay will be even worse, and you’ll be living in Boingo Boingo. Some people enjoy that. 🙂

Historical Linguist:

You’ll need to get a job in a country where historical linguistics is still taken seriously, or is put up with as a necessary evil adjunct to fieldwork of underdocumented languages. The former: Germany, UK, very small patches in the US. Most European countries, though in niche positions (e.g. lexicography). The latter: Australia I guess, and other fieldwork places, although you can kiss goodbye to any work on Indo-European.

There’s some chance of getting a gig as a language revival worker with an indigenous community. See above.

Academic Linguist at all.

See unexpected issues above. You will have to network; publish; chase fashionable work; work wherever there is a gig; put up with successive postdocs and penury; and be a good salesperson to grants bodies.

Many linguistics departments in most countries were created by baby boomers, in the post-Chomsky boom. (The boom in Australia was a bit later, and more fieldwork-driven.) Waiting for people to retire (or, failing that, die) is going to have to be part of your calculation.

… Z-Kat, you didn’t expect a positive answer from me, did you? 😉

Is there a word for “time travel” using Greek or Latin parts of speech?

By: | Post date: 2017-01-16 | Comments: No Comments
Posted in categories: Ancient Greek, English, Latin, Linguistics

The Modern Greek for “time travel” is the unimaginative calque Ταξίδι στο χρόνο (“travel in time”). It does indeed use the chronos word; but taxidi is a mediaeval word which now means “travel, journey” (originally, it was “expedition”). Star Trek was originally rendered in Greek as Ταξίδι στα Άστρα “Journey to the Stars”.

For a more classical word for “travel, journey”, I’d pick πορεία (which also has the connotation of expedition), which would make time travel chronoporia.

But Alberto Yagos is right that the –naut stem is the more usual one for exploration, and we don’t have any English words ending in –poria (or –pory). Chrononautica is a little too… Latinate? Indirect? Chrononaucy would be the normal Anglicisation (via French) of chrononautia, though it looks just odd, as we have no other -naucy words; so maybe chrononautia.

EDIT: Achilleas Vortselas is right: -nautia is too close to nausea. Make it chrononautilia.

How is souvlaki prepared differently in different countries?

By: | Post date: 2017-01-15 | Comments: No Comments
Posted in categories: Culture, Modern Greek

Souvlaki – Wikipedia lists the variation of Souvlaki within Greece and Cyprus. Gyro (food) – Wikipedia speaks to gyros, which is the Greek evolution of the Doner kebab – Wikipedia.

In Greece, Souvlaki properly is a skewer of meat, typically pork, and often served in pita. Gyros, which involves shaved rotisserie meat (again, typically pork) is distinct from souvlaki. Either are served in small pita bread wraps, with mustard, salad, and fries.

The Cypriot version involves a pita pocket two or three times the size, tomatoes, cucumbers and cabbage, and often parsley and onion.

The Australian version diverged early, and it’s a gyros, not a skewer: you will see gyros (or yeeros) as a name as well, but souvlaki is the usual name here. (Often enough pronounced souvalaki, and more recently, as would happen with any Australian slang word, souva). Now that there is a new wave of migration of Greeks to Australia, Greek-style souvlakis are popping up as a contrast to Greek-Australian Souvlakis.

The gyros is traditionally lamb, and pork is unheard of. Chicken is the alternative meat in both Greece and Australia. The pita is twice the size. Tzatziki instead of mustard, salad, and no fries.

To which extent was Greek a spoken language by the native population in the early Greek state in 1823?

By: | Post date: 2017-01-14 | Comments: No Comments
Posted in categories: Linguistics, Modern Greek

Let’s take the Greek State as 1832, when it had fixed boundaries.

I’m also going to use the pre-2010 Prefectures of Greece to break down the area of the new State.

We know that Arvanitika was spoken widely in the new Greek state. We know that many who fought in the War of Independence were monolingual Albanian speakers, who could not understand the instructions of Greek commanders.

15 of the 2010 prefectures were part of the new State. Of these:

  • Arvanitika was the most widely spoken in Attica, Boeotia, Corinthia, and the Argolid, and the southern half of Euboea.
    • As far as I know, it was all of Boeotia, most of Attica (Greek was limited to Athens, Aegina and Megara), most of Corinthia, and the eastern half of the Argolid.
  • Arvanitika was a minority language in Messenia, Achaea, Arcadia, Laconia, and the Cyclades. Per Arvanitika – Wikipedia, not Elis.
  • That leaves, by my guess, just 5 prefectures out of 15 where Arvanitika was not spoken: Phthiotis, Phocis, Eurytania, Aetolia & Acarnania, Elis.

Arvanitika and Greek were the major languages of the new State. I’m not aware of any Ladino: Jews in southern Greece spoke Greek. Not aware of any Slavonic spoken there since the Middle Ages. There would have been some Romany and Turkish spoken. There is a pocket of Aromanian spoken in Acarnania, per Aromanian language – Wikipedia.

I don’t have population numbers handy, and I don’t know if anyone does. Going by geography, Arvanitika was not the majority language, but it could easily have been spoken by a quarter of the population.

What is the difference between athematic and irregular verbs?

By: | Post date: 2017-01-13 | Comments: No Comments
Posted in categories: Ancient Greek, Linguistics

I’ll answer this for Greek.

Irregular verbs are really irregular, to the extent of suppletion between different persons, and all sorts of other shenanigans.

Thematic and athematic are two different classes of regular verb. The athematic class is smaller, and has more core vocabulary verbs, so we presume it to be older; it’s like the strong/weak verb distinction in Germanic.

The thematic vowel is a vowel that connects personal inflections to the tense stem of a verb in Greek. It’s alternates between an e or an o. So, to take the paradigm verb lyō:

ly-o-ɔː > lyɔː
ly-e-es > lyeːs λύεις
ly-e-e > lyeː λύει
ly-o-men
ly-e-te
ly-o-ōsi > lyoːsi λύουσι

Athematic verbs have a different set of inflections, with no initial vowels, and no connecting vowel. So tithɛːmi ‘I put’:

tithe-mi > tithɛːmi τίθημι
tithe-s > tithɛːs τίθης
tithe-si > tithɛːsi τίθησι
tithe-men
tithe-te
tithe-aːsi

I’m not googling Slavic, sorry. 🙂 But it’d be the same thing: historical linguists have worked out that the connecting, thematic vowel is present in the thematic verbs, and absent in the athematic vowels. They are still both regular in their own way, compared to the truly irregular verbs.

What in your opinion is the ugliest/most unappealing script?

By: | Post date: 2017-01-13 | Comments: No Comments
Posted in categories: Other Languages, Writing Systems

It’s a cute question. There are aesthetics to scripts. There has been a lot of aesthetic effort put in to the calligraphies and typographies of a lot of scripts.

In fact, when I was perusing Omniglot, to find something that jumped out as ugly, I realised that the obvious candidates were minority—one-off scripts of small communities, that never got the professional attention lavished on them that big-league scripts have had.

So Eskayan script, for example (Eskayan script and language) should not be targeted here. And having found an article about it: it doesn’t look anywhere near as ugly in notebooks in situ, as it does on the sample charts online.

The major Unicode script I happen to like least is Thaana (Thaana (Maldivian) script). But the reason for that, I think, is an Uncanny valley effect: it looks like it should be Arabic, but it isn’t. (In fact, it originated as a mix of Arabic and Indic numbers.)

What is it called when you get aroused by watching people die?

By: | Post date: 2017-01-12 | Comments: 2 Comments
Posted in categories: Ancient Greek, English, Linguistics

Vote #1 Vicky Prest: Vicky Prest’s answer to What is it called when you get aroused by watching people die?

No, seriously. Because this answer is just pedantic commentary on her answer, from someone who knows too much Greek, and can look up words on Wikipedia: List of paraphilias – Wikipedia.

Symphorophilia. Literally, “misfortune-love”. Not what I would have picked, because the word could just mean “chance” or “conjunction”. Coined by some sexologist with a dictionary in 1984 (John Money). Does not mean the subject necessarily died, just that they were in some arranged disaster:

A special form of sacrificial paraphilia, for which a suitable name is symphorophilia (being erotically turned on by accidents or catastrophes), culminates in an arranged disaster, such as an automobile crash. Like a game of Russian roulette, it may end in death — alone or with the partner. However, flirting with disaster, rather than suicide and murder is the trigger responsible for autoerotic arousal and excitement. Being the daredevil who will live to risk a love-death again is an essential part of this paraphilia.

Looks like people use it to mean getting off on watching someone dying, but it is more about the risk of someone dying; like auto-asphyxiation is about the risk of choking.

So: no.

Erotophonophilia “erotic murder love”. Three-part compounds in Greek make me nervous. Wikipedia offers the synonym dacnolagnomania “bite horny obsession”, which is… huh? Wikipedia’s entry for the paraphilia is Lust murder. (The entry says erotophonophilia is “gratification contingent on the death of a human being”; but phonos is murder, not just death.)

So: no.

Autassassinophilia. Another John Money coinage.

It’s a good thing John Money is dead. Because by rights he should be taken out and hung, for the cold blooded murder of the Grecian tongue!

John Money, you fricking tosser! Do you think Greeks had no word for being killed? Do you think we Greeks were so clueless, they had to wait for you to come up with the word auto-assassination? And that they didn’t have a notion of killing until the fucking Hashashin of the 11th century?!

SLAP! Auto- SLAP! phono- SLAP! philia, you SLAP! illiterate SLAP! shmuck!

Even that’s crap: it sounds like suicide (killing yourself), not yourself being killed. Biaiothanatophilia “violent death love” would be slightly clearer.

Autassasinophilia (fuck me, that sticks in my throat) is getting off on the risk of getting killed. John Money said that it was a complement to erotophonophilia; Wikipedia cites a psychologist saying no, the autassassinophiliac gets off on just the risk of being killed; the erotophonophiliac gets off on actually killing someone. So the meeting of the two is not necessarily going to leave both happy.

That ain’t watching people die, in any case, so no.

Thanatophilia “death love” or Necrophilia “corpse love”, we know. That ain’t watching people die either, so no.

Hm…. I’m going through the Wikipedia list again.

(Recognising a few that I’m going to put away for future reference. 🙂

Eproctophilia for fart fetish? Proctos is the Greek for anus; what the fuck is E- ? THAT BETTER NOT BE THE FUCKING LATIN FOR “OUT OF”! Ancient Greek had a word for farting, DID YOUR GREEK DICTIONARY SKIP IT?! I’M LOOKING AT YOU, JOHN MONEY! Pordophilia, you IDJIT!

… I should get danger money for looking at this list, the Latin–Greek hybrids are hurting my eyes… And who the hell thought vorarephilia was a good idea? Not just a Latin–Greek hybrid, but a fucking infinitive?! I thought Franklin Veaux had a typo when I saw him mention it.

Is not knowing shit about Classical languages a prerequisite for sexologists?!

Assclowns. (I’m sure there’s a paraphilia for that too.)

Nothing in Wikipedia’s list that matches “arousal by watching people die”. I’m going to Aggrawal’s list of 547 paraphilias: Aggrawal, Anil (2009). Forensic and Medico-legal Aspects of Sexual Crimes and Unusual Sexual Practices. Boca Raton: CRC Press. pp. 369–82

… Oh fuck me, it’s worse. Afophilia “sexual stimulation via touch” with an F?! Aphephilia, which is THE SAME WORD?! Allotriorasty: where did you put the -e-?! Autoscopophilia “gratification by looking at one’s own body”, also known as autoscophilia: yeah, if you randomly delete syllables it is. Iantranudia “flashing your doctor”: doctor is iatros, not iantros, and –nudia is just silly.

Assclowns. I’m not even reading the “Greek” any more. And if anyone has this book, for Godsakes, ask me first before you use anything in its glossary. Most of the terms listed have bona fide typos.

Homicidophilia? That’s just the same as erotophonophilia; no voyeurism there.

Taphephilia “arousal from being buried alive” and Taphophilia “arousal from funerals” are of course the same word (“tomb love”), and no voyeurism there either.

I got nothing out of any of those lists. Which is strange, since the whole point of snuff films is this paraphilia.

(Yes, I know snuff films are fictional. Half those paraphilias looked fictional to me too.)

If I were to make up a word for this, I’d take the Greek for voyeurism, “Scop[t]ophilia”, combine it with “death” or “murder”, and come up with thanatoscop[t]ophilia or phonoscop[t]ophilia. I prefer the former.

Thanatoscopophilia. Love of watching death.

Of course, I should not go around making up words for paraphilias. My knowledge of actual Greek is too good for me to be a sexologist.

Vicky Prest, thank you for that. That was actually fun!

What are some common words between Italian and Greek?

By: | Post date: 2017-01-12 | Comments: 1 Comment
Posted in categories: Linguistics, Modern Greek

There’s a substantial number of Italian loanwords in Modern Greek. Many of those loanwords are specifically from Venetian, rather than Tuscan Italian, because a large part of Greece was under Venetian rule for centuries. (And a large number of Greek islands were ruled by other Northern Italian republics.) Italian was also the language through which Greece was exposed to the West for centuries. Lexicography does not differentiate Venetian and Italian consistently.

The post Ιταλικές και βενετσιάνικες λέξεις στα ελληνικά at the lexilogia forum links to 891 headwords listed as Venetian in the Triantafyllidis dictionary, and 2468 as Italian (out of 47,000 entries.) The post is wrong, because the search they link to also retrieves entries from Kriaras’ Early Modern Greek dictionary, hosted at the same site; but the number is substantial, and I agree that most Modern Greek loanwords are from Italian and Venetian.

As a sampler, this PDF: http://www.greek-language.gr/gre…, a guide for teachers of Greek as a Foreign Language, gives the following examples of “Italian” loans:

αντένα, βάρκα, βελούδο, βεντέτα, βίζιτα, βίλα, βιολί, βόλτα, γάντι, γάτα, γούστο, κάλτσα, κανάλι, καπετάνιος, καπρίτσιο, κάρβουνο, καρέκλα, κάσα, κασετίνα, κόλπο, κομπόστα, κόστος, κότερο, κουβέρτα, κούνια, λάμπα, μπάνιο, μπαρκάρω, μπαστούνι, μπότα, μπουκάλι, μπουρίνι, μπράτσο, όπερα, παντελόνι, πατάτα, πόζα, ράτσα, ρεντίκολο, ρόδα, σαλάμι, σβέλτος, σερβίρω, σκούρος, σούπα, σπίρτο, στάμπα, τενόρος, τραμουντάνα, φουρτούνα.

antena, varka, veluðo, vendeta, vizita, vila, violi, volta, ɣanti, ɣata, ɣusto, kaltsa, kanali, kapetanios, kapritsio, karvuno, karekla, kasa, kasetina, kolpo, komposta, kostos, kotero, kuverta, kunia, lampa, banio, barkaro, bastuni, bota, bukali, burini, bratso, opera, panteloni, patata, poza, ratsa, redikolo, roða, salami, sveltos, serviro, skuros, supa, spirto, stampa, tenoros, tramuntana, furtuna.

antenna, boat, velvet, feud, visit (esp. to a doctor or prostitute), villa, violin, stroll, glove, cat, good taste, sock, channel, captain, caprice, coal, chair, trunk, pencil case, trick, fruit preserve, cost, yacht, blanket, cradle, lamp, bath, embark, cane, boot, bottle, squall, arm, opera, pants, potato, pose, race, figure of ridicule, wheel, salami, swift, serve food, dark, soup, matchstick or spirits, stamp, tenor, north wind, storm.

  • Subscribe to Blog via Email

    Join 327 other subscribers
  • July 2025
    M T W T F S S
     123456
    78910111213
    14151617181920
    21222324252627
    28293031